So, we already know that there aren't going to be any in-game maps. Brad and Company have already stated that... And I agree with it.
I had an idea for a Cartography skill that was sort of like a "Sense Heading" on steroids. It would be a "growable skill" like any of the others, but would potentially work something like this. Keep in mind that these "maps" would be something that would be no-drop, so you couldn't buy, sell, or trade them. They would be strictly personal-use.
Skill level 1 - 10: Able to crudely map major landmarks like roads, coastlines, and rivers, crude accuracy.
Skill level 11-20: Able to map major landmarks like roads, coastlines, and rivers in more detail, fine accuracy.
Skill level 21-30: Able to crudely map minor landmarks like notable items (think fallen trees, interesting rock formations, and the like), crude accuracy.
Skill level 31-40: Able to map minor landmarks like notable items in more detail, fine accuracy.
Skill level 41-50: Able to crudely add locations of interest, crude accuracy.
Skill level 51-60: Able to add locations of interest, fine accuracy.
Thoughts?
I like the ability to make more detailed maps with higher skill but I would like to see it differ from your idea a bit.
I would like maps to be tradable. But I don't want anyone to be able to be a master map maker simply by running around zones. There should be something required of a player in order to raise their skill. Some task or action so that being good at making maps is more like a tradeskill. That would make it so that not everyone would do it thereby giving value to player made maps. Players with better skill make better maps that are more in demand, just like crafted armor and weapons.
I see this being a cool skill, but redundant within, Pantheon. In the earliest of Everquest, players had a map, but it was blank. You could simply mark and name your points of interests. I think it would be safe to assume some kind of implamentation like this would be included into, Pantheon. Including a cordinates system to be able to communicate where you are whithin a zone. They wanna make it challenging, but not an everlasting headache.
I dont disagree with the fact that we should have some sort of navigational system in place other than a "working" compass. But I dont necessarily want to see it a skill, perhaps something similar to what you have labeled out, but something that grows purely based upon level.
The higher the level you are the more detailed your maps can become.
Makinelly said:I see this being a cool skill, but redundant within, Pantheon. In the earliest of Everquest, players had a map, but it was blank. You could simply mark and name your points of interests. I think it would be safe to assume some kind of implamentation like this would be included into, Pantheon. Including a cordinates system to be able to communicate where you are whithin a zone. They wanna make it challenging, but not an everlasting headache.
Everquest did not originally have any in-game maps. There wasn't anything you could mark or anything like that. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Maybe in EQ2 they had that, I don't recall, but EQ didn't have that. The best that you had was a grid coordinate system when you did a /loc.
They've already said that there are no in-game maps. Unless they have changed something, I don't see what you think they are going to have is going to happen. They've said that all mapping will be basically left to others to do and post on web sites.
You might be interested in these threads about maps/cartography, this one being the main started by VR: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/1
Then these:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/988/world-maps
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6086/scribe-crafting-maps
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2241/a-cartography-skill
And from the May stream: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=50m10s
The LoY in-game map came about, i think because while *everyone* loved EQAtlas, Dual monitors were really not a thing back then, and trying to alt-tab out would sometimes not go well for the EQ client :) Most of us literally had them printed out and sitting next to our PCs.
The "flaw" with the LoY map system was that players figured out how to export the map files and redistribute them - so, people started making maps and passing them around, negating the need to make your own maps. I put the word "flaw" in quotes because I think it was more of an unintended feature. Either way though, most subsequent games just added in-game maps from the get-go. Some of them had fog of war, others didn't.
I respect the decision to go back to the old EQ style. I love me some maps, but having everything laid out for you in-game takes somethign away from the vastness and splendor of the world itself. Without an easy-to-refer-to map, terrain features like roads, signs, and landmarks have far more meaning. "Head south until you get to the big tree, then hang a left and look towards the hills to find the stone circle."
Of course, now that dual monitors ARE a thing, the vast majority of people will just go to Pantheon-atlas.com or whatever site it ends up being. But at least there will be more of the illusion of immersion for the ones that don't :)
More desirable to me would be that the game world changes over time, so that those old out of game maps become obsolete after a bit. Not day to day, mind you, but someone who stops playing and comes back a year later should be saying things like "what happened to the town that used to be here? All I see now are ruins!" :)
Iksar said:You might be interested in these threads about maps/cartography, this one being the main started by VR: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/1
Then these:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/988/world-maps
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6086/scribe-crafting-maps
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2241/a-cartography-skill
And from the May stream: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=50m10s
I saw all of that long before I made this post. None of them discussed a skill system for cartography, so that's why I wrote this one.
EDIT: Fixed my crappy typing.
Ive always been a fan of putting options in the game and allowing players to either use them or not. WoW for example did not REQUIRE you to use add-ons, but it definitely made your day to day life easier.
I would love to see the system in place, but not something you are required to do.
I rememeber EQ before maps, and it was not that fun getting lost.. however we also dealt with that jacked up sense heading skill which i hope is never seen again!
Porygon said:Ive always been a fan of putting options in the game and allowing players to either use them or not. WoW for example did not REQUIRE you to use add-ons, but it definitely made your day to day life easier.
I would love to see the system in place, but not something you are required to do.
I rememeber EQ before maps, and it was not that fun getting lost.. however we also dealt with that jacked up sense heading skill which i hope is never seen again!
Personally, I loved wondering out and getting lost. Sometimes, I would take a week or two off of "adventuring" and just wonder around and find new places that I had never been.
Without maps or a charting skill we might just have to stop and ask directions. The women will be ok, but the men will be lost.
In all seriousness, there is a social aspect to be lost if maps or a charting/ mapping system is in the game. Interaction between players to find their way arround. For "Race to top level and leave" players it's a pain, for Explorers it's a blessing.
Zorkon said:Without maps or a charting skill we might just have to stop and ask directions. The women will be ok, but the men will be lost.
In all seriousness, there is a social aspect to be lost if maps or a charting/ mapping system is in the game. Interaction between players to find their way arround. For "Race to top level and leave" players it's a pain, for Explorers it's a blessing.
How so? If it's skill based it's going to start off very crude. It's not like it's going to be some razor sharp GPS coordinates. Even the higher skill levels don't need to be made super accurate. Maps back in the day weren't particularly known for thir accuracy. In addition, no matter what your cartography skill level is, you'd still have to visit a place to map it. It's not like places would just pop up on your map as you leveled up. The map would basically be a graphical representation of places you've already visited. Perhaps it could be done in such a way that it would take multiple visits in order to get very accurate. For instance, even if you had a high skill level, the representation on the map is of the crude skill level and gets better every time you visit up to your skill level cap. And, for the record, I am against having a "you are here" dot on the map.
Back in EQ, pre-mapping, most of us kept a list of /loc "GPS" coordinates of interesting items written down. Most of the "continents" based maps on web sites weren't particularly detailed. Dungeon maps were, however.
There have been discussions about a cartography skill and its antecendents going back in computer gaming to at least Might and Magic II. But no harm in discussing it again.
Much as I enjoyed MMII I would just as soon not see that skill again here. I would prefer EVERY character being able to see where they are and what is around them to the fullest extent SSG is willing to allow.
My first choice would be an in-game map of whatever zone you are in. Not showing anything you haven't seen. Fog of war is good. Not necessarily showing points of interest though I don't really understand the objections in the forum to good maps.
In real life if I went camping in Butt Grove dozens of people would be able to tell me that the town of Yellow Rapids was 10 miles to the northwest. Fog of war doesn't necessarily make any sense unless you are in uninhabited areas although I accept fog of war. But why not let you have a map showing things that your character personally has *already* seen?
dorotea said:There have been discussions about a cartography skill and its antecendents going back in computer gaming to at least Might and Magic II. But no harm in discussing it again.
Much as I enjoyed MMII I would just as soon not see that skill again here. I would prefer EVERY character being able to see where they are and what is around them to the fullest extent SSG is willing to allow.
My first choice would be an in-game map of whatever zone you are in. Not showing anything you haven't seen. Fog of war is good. Not necessarily showing points of interest though I don't really understand the objections in the forum to good maps.
In real life if I went camping in Butt Grove dozens of people would be able to tell me that the town of Yellow Rapids was 10 miles to the northwest. Fog of war doesn't necessarily make any sense unless you are in uninhabited areas although I accept fog of war. But why not let you have a map showing things that your character personally has *already* seen?
Sorry to disappoint, but they have already said that there are going to be no in-game maps (including no 'fog of war'), much like the original EQ was before the later expansion packs. That's why I brought up the cartography skill in the first place.
Kalok said:Iksar said:You might be interested in these threads about maps/cartography, this one being the main started by VR: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/1
Then these:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/988/world-maps
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6086/scribe-crafting-maps
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2241/a-cartography-skill
And from the May stream: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=50m10s
I saw all of that long before I made this post. None of them discussed a skill system for cartography, so that's why I wrote this one.
EDIT: Fixed my crappy typing.
The first & second link they are talking about a cartography skill by page 2, the third it starts from the second post onward, the fourth is pretty much a cartography suggestion just placed under the scribe profession, and the fifth link is quite literally titled "a cartography skill"
>Sorry to disappoint, but they have already said that there are going to be no in-game maps (including no 'fog of war'), much like the original EQ was before the later expansion packs. That's why I brought up the cartography skill in the first place.<
No disappointment I am well aware of this - I have tried to follow all the cartography threads. Doesn't mean I can't toss a contrary opinion in occasionally though - I doubt if SSG will change their minds but it *could* happen. Granted, more likely the horse will learn to sing (more likely yet the horse will just say neigh).
dorotea said:>Sorry to disappoint, but they have already said that there are going to be no in-game maps (including no 'fog of war'), much like the original EQ was before the later expansion packs. That's why I brought up the cartography skill in the first place.<
No disappointment I am well aware of this - I have tried to follow all the cartography threads. Doesn't mean I can't toss a contrary opinion in occasionally though - I doubt if SSG will change their minds but it *could* happen. Granted, more likely the horse will learn to sing (more likely yet the horse will just say neigh).
Yeah... And? Nowhere do they talk about how the skill levels could look or anything.
You seem to just pipe up on threads and throw out shade and negativity. That's not really necessary, you know. If you don't like an idea, ignoring the thread altogether is a perfectly acceptable response.
dorotea said:>Sorry to disappoint, but they have already said that there are going to be no in-game maps (including no 'fog of war'), much like the original EQ was before the later expansion packs. That's why I brought up the cartography skill in the first place.<
No disappointment I am well aware of this - I have tried to follow all the cartography threads. Doesn't mean I can't toss a contrary opinion in occasionally though - I doubt if SSG will change their minds but it *could* happen. Granted, more likely the horse will learn to sing (more likely yet the horse will just say neigh).
I agree. Contrary opinions are the lifeblood of forums and tend to make people think about perspectives that they may have not thoiught about. The only time I dislike a contrary opinion is when someone pipes up with negativity on everything that's posted, which thankfully, is at a minimum on these forums.
Hell, soetimes I contradict myself in my posts if on reflection I think an idea that I had is stupid....hehehe
Porygon said: Game designers say A lot of things that don't end up panning out or changing. There's never anything wrong with talking about the potential changes you think could make the game better.
I agree. Which is sort of my point behind this thread. I will say, knowing Braad's reputation going back to the late 1990s, generally if he says something is or isn't going to be in the game, he's persistent about that being the case. If he is no longer leading it, as was the case with with SoE taking EQ and Vanguard over, all bets are off.
Kalok said:Porygon said: Game designers say A lot of things that don't end up panning out or changing. There's never anything wrong with talking about the potential changes you think could make the game better.I agree. Which is sort of my point behind this thread. I will say, knowing Braad's reputation going back to the late 1990s, generally if he says something is or isn't going to be in the game, he's persistent about that being the case. If he is no longer leading it, as was the case with with SoE taking EQ and Vanguard over, all bets are off.
Poor SoE. Always gets hated on!
Porygon said:Kalok said:Porygon said: Game designers say A lot of things that don't end up panning out or changing. There's never anything wrong with talking about the potential changes you think could make the game better.I agree. Which is sort of my point behind this thread. I will say, knowing Braad's reputation going back to the late 1990s, generally if he says something is or isn't going to be in the game, he's persistent about that being the case. If he is no longer leading it, as was the case with with SoE taking EQ and Vanguard over, all bets are off.
Poor SoE. Always gets hated on!
With good reason.....ROFL
>You seem to just pipe up on threads and throw out shade and negativity. That's not really necessary, you know. If you don't like an idea, ignoring the thread altogether is a perfectly acceptable response.<
1. I think I support at least as many ideas as I don't support on these forums, and often try to come up with alternatives when two different points of view seem to be polarized. Of course, they aren't always *good* alternatives. My bias is towards supporting solo play (recognizing the group focus of the game) and avoiding unnecessary inconveniences that are urged in the name of "old school" play. To me challenge is good but tedium is not. Thus I have urged in multiple threads that we have at least a minimal mapping system and that we have at least some ways to get to places that we have already been relatively quickly, despite the unquestioned value of making travel through places that we do not already know slower and more challenging.My opinions are rarely in the majority on issues like this, but they also are invariably shared by at least some others. SSG is not aiming the game just to appeal to people here (the most enthisiastic of the old school or we wouldn't have pledged) but to people in the general community that share the desire for a more challenging, complex and slower MMO. Throwing out opinions that may be the minority here but may *not* be the minority *there* has some value as long as done politely and without personal criticism of other forum participants. For the record I support, and have supported in other threads, the idea of cartography if SSG determines not to have any better mapping system.
2. With respect, I disagree that ignoring a proposal one doesn't like is the best reaction. If only people that support a thread respond and the others feel it is somehow rude to disagree, SSG will get a highly inaccurate feel for the opinions of forum participants. I feel that it is far better to respond, but keep any negativity strictly focused on the proposal not the person making the proposal. We all come up with crappy ideas from time to time - as someone else said above, I have been known to disagree with my own proposals after reading responses and deciding that they make good points. Which is, of course, a good reason to encourage people that disagree to respond. Not meaning to imply that cartography is a crappy idea, it is not, and I much prefer it to no mapping at all.
dorotea said:>You seem to just pipe up on threads and throw out shade and negativity. That's not really necessary, you know. If you don't like an idea, ignoring the thread altogether is a perfectly acceptable response.<
1. I think I support at least as many ideas as I don't support on these forums, and often try to come up with alternatives when two different points of view seem to be polarized. Of course, they aren't always *good* alternatives. My bias is towards supporting solo play (recognizing the group focus of the game) and avoiding unnecessary inconveniences that are urged in the name of "old school" play. To me challenge is good but tedium is not. Thus I have urged in multiple threads that we have at least a minimal mapping system and that we have at least some ways to get to places that we have already been relatively quickly, despite the unquestioned value of making travel through places that we do not already know slower and more challenging.My opinions are rarely in the majority on issues like this, but they also are invariably shared by at least some others. SSG is not aiming the game just to appeal to people here (the most enthisiastic of the old school or we wouldn't have pledged) but to people in the general community that share the desire for a more challenging, complex and slower MMO. Throwing out opinions that may be the minority here but may *not* be the minority *there* has some value as long as done politely and without personal criticism of other forum participants. For the record I support, and have supported in other threads, the idea of cartography if SSG determines not to have any better mapping system.
2. With respect, I disagree that ignoring a proposal one doesn't like is the best reaction. If only people that support a thread respond and the others feel it is somehow rude to disagree, SSG will get a highly inaccurate feel for the opinions of forum participants. I feel that it is far better to respond, but keep any negativity strictly focused on the proposal not the person making the proposal. We all come up with crappy ideas from time to time - as someone else said above, I have been known to disagree with my own proposals after reading responses and deciding that they make good points. Which is, of course, a good reason to encourage people that disagree to respond. Not meaning to imply that cartography is a crappy idea, it is not, and I much prefer it to no mapping at all.
I will reply in paragraph form to each of your paragraphs.
1. I support as many ideas as possible myself. The issue comes when someone replies in the negative to every post that they reply to without suggesting something as an alternative. You can't have a reasoned discussion wiith someone that says "That sucks." but doesn't offer a reasoning or an alternative idea. At that point they're just being negative to be negative.
2. Under normal circumstances, I would agree with this as well, however, when the person replying is doing nothing but being negative and not offering any logical rebuttal or alternate idea, it would serve them better to just ignore the thread altogether than just replying, "That sucks. Bad idea." and leaving it at that. I, too, have changed my mind in dicsussion forums when someone has offered an alternate idea or better suggestion. He doesn't do that. All he does is reply with some form of "That sucks." or "I don't like that. Bad idea." and that's it. My cartography skill might very well be a crappy idea. I can accept that. However, he is not offering anything in the alternative. He is just saying that it sucks and leaving it at that, as if his answer were self-evident. Thi is not the first thread that I have seen him do this on. One of mine happened to be one of the other ones. In that one, he seems to be intent on ignoring what I am actually saying and just say how bad m idea is without offering an alternate solution or idea. Again, it's not just my threads that he is doing this on. Which is why I suggested the "move along".
With my Cartography skill, I was trying to come up with an idea somewhere in between the "there are no maps at all" and "everything is mapped for you".